Projekt:Podcast/Avsnitt 334
Avsnitt 334
Inspelningsdatum: 22 november 2025
Publiceringsdatum: 29 november 2025
Lyssna:
Extern länk: https://wikipediapodden.se/wikiconnl-2025-334/
Programanteckningar
Programledare är Jan Ainali.
Special episode
This is an episode recorded at WikiconNL 2025 in Leiden. The focus of the episode is the conference, what it and events like this mean to the community and organizational aspects.
First we meet Kirsten Jansen, office manager of Wikimedia Nederlands who talks about the importance of a smoothly running back office and having fun while doing it.
Then we meet Thamara Groenleer, project lead for the conference, who talks about how themes can emerge and how to create environment that enables the participants.
Then we hear from Vera de Kok, official event photographer, who talks about what well documented events can mean.
After that we widen the perspective a bit with Julia Brungs, Lead Community Relations Specialist at the Wikimedia Foundation, and talk about communication in the community, in general and at events like this.
Staying with a Wikimedia Foundation connection, we talk with Jan-Bart de Vreede, former chair of the Foundation and current chair of Wikimedia Nederland, about the importance and value of meetings and what it means to the the chapter and the community.
We keep on that theme when talking to Sandra Rientjes, Executive Director of Wikimedia Nederland, and also talk about leadership in the movement as she is the longest serving ED for a few more weeks.
Transcript
Hello and welcome to Wikipediapodden and I am Jan Ainali, I'm your host today and today we're going to Leiden, we're going to WikiconNL and listen to what are the thoughts of the organizers and what tips do they have to share. That is what we're going to listen to today. So here we go.
So I'm here with Kirsten Jansen, who is the office manager at the Wikimedia Nederland and we're at WikiconNL 2025. How are you feeling? We're just in the start of this so you don't have, but how are you feeling about the conference this year?
Oh, I'm very excited. We have so many good tracks and our keynote speaker, Maxim Februari, we're very proud that we have him in the house and it's always a joy. The Wikicon is always a joy because you see so many people that you know for many years and you have the time to chat and now I'm very excited every time.
What role do you feel that this conference play in, like in the Dutch movement as a whole? Because it's sort of like a thing coming together, but how do you feel about what's coming in, coming out afterwards, how do you see it play a role?
Well, to be honest, normally I don't see much of the Wikicon because I'm very busy at the back office, but I always see the people, how do I explain this correctly, I see that they are very excited to see the people they only see after their screen, when they are working on Wikipedia. And the main thing every time here is I've learned so much today and that's why we have the Wikicon and they are very glad, very glad I've learned this and I've learned that and I've heard something I never knew and I can use this for that and that's the main thing that is also the outcome of the Wikicon and it's nice, you know, I mean, we are leaving always the Wikicon with a big smile because we see the people happy, they are satisfied and they got what they wanted.
And I've seen you at a number of events and conferences, you always also have a big smile when doing this. What is it really that brings the joy for you in organising an event and attending them?
Well, it's my thing. Organising events and I love it, I mean, when you organise an event and everything comes together and everything works out the way you want it, well, how can I not have a big smile and then also seeing the people happy and thanking and thank you for organising this and it's a joy and it's one of the, like we say in the Dutch, krenten in the pub. It's the crown on your job, you know, so no, it gives me energy. I love it. I really like organising events and see all the people again and now let me do my thing and I'm happy.
That's great to hear. And when organising an event, big events like these, some things are obvious to think about but you have done this a couple of times, what are some things that are not so obvious but still kind of important for the event to run smoothly?
Yeah, but it's not obvious. Everything is not obvious because you think you have organised everything well and then this is forgotten or that is not there where you expect it to be or it's always expect and not expecting. That's the only thing you can do and then you're not surprised but it's always the surprise that it comes together when you finally think, oh God, why, why, why isn't it going the way I want to? It's more that but there is not something special you need to think about to give the people some extras because the Wikicon is extra for the people, by the people, with the people.
And for other people listening, perhaps thinking about organising an event, what's like some basic advice you would give to them?
Well always keep in mind that you have people who are not, for example, not able to walk very well so you have to see if there are elevators available or the entrance or the public transfer has to be in the neighbourhood. That is something that you have to think about. So there are of course a diversity of people so you have to have a room where people can sit to relax or think about everything. Yeah that's the main thing, you have to be sure you have a location which is for everybody available, they can come in and come out without falling from the stairs and be sure you have organised everything in the back of it. That has to run smooth and then everything can happen in front but you can solve it. And that's it.
Very good, thanks Kirsten and enjoy the rest of the conference.
I will, thank you.
All right, so we're here at the WikiconNL again and I'm sitting in the foyer with Thamara Groenleer who is the project lead for the Wikicon Conference itself. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
So we're just not even half day into the conference so we cannot say a lot about how it went yet but what were the thoughts going in putting out the programme this year?
My thoughts exactly were we're not going to put a theme on the Wikicon this year so every Wikicon has a theme or some common line but we explicitly choose to not have a team this year and then a theme showed up while we were confirming our speakers. And that team was actually decolonisation. So a lot of our sessions, not all of them, are about some way or some form a museum works with decolonising their database. And also the host location that we're at is the World Museum in Leiden and they also do a lot of exhibitions about world culture and they have this colonisation history and they're explicitly working to undo that. So the location and the programme that unraveled itself actually match Made in Heaven.
But I do understand that you have something new this year. You have a track for the youth?
Yes, so a couple of years ago I did a research about our young people, the young editors within our community and that was, well I say young I mean everything under 25. So my research was about everyone that was editing under 25 and we were searching for them and how do you find them, how do you know what their age is. They're very protective of their age so a lot of young people do not share their exact age and a few findings of that research was that they needed a place they could be together and learn, get to know each other but also build like a young Wikimedian community without the older generation telling them what the etiquette is and what the rules are. Because rule number five, you can always come up with a new rule. So they needed a place that made it possible for them to be together and this year we had two Wiki get-togethers and that were the first two meetings where young Wikimedians from the Dutch community as well as the Flemish community got together. So the first was hosted in Utrecht at our office. It was just a pizza party with games they played and then the second was in Breda to make it more easy for the Flemish guys to join us and it was really, really nice. They are actually actively getting to know each other, building a community and we also wanted to give them a space at Wikicon, just an open space to come up with whatever they want. That became the Jungret track, the young people's track and one of them, two guys wanted to host a session but unfortunately that was at the same time as the Wikipedia and AI session so a lot of people are currently at the Wikipedia and AI session and then further they can just do what they like. So there's some creativity, space to be creative together to build something like a piece of art together as well as play a game and just talk about editing or space to edit.
And from what you just said, I gather that meeting physically together plays a big role for what you're doing and how does a big conference like this, what does that mean for the Dutch community?
Yes, for the Dutch community and not just for the young people.
We'll start small, maybe what does it mean for the chapter?
I think it holds the chapter together. It's a big part of seeing someone in person, getting to know them, knowing who is the person behind that anonymous username, that is really important. Also you see people and if you grow together with them online on the platform as well as offline, you get to know, you ask about their health and how are they and did they move and what happened in their lives so that part, it makes it easy to get to know each other. A meeting like this makes it easy to get to know each other but it's also important because it could be like the glue of a community. It holds a community together, it builds trust. When you work together on a platform like Wikipedia, you have to trust each other. That's why it's also important for young people to get to know each other and not, they don't share their age with the older generation but they do share their ages with each other. So that's important I think.
And trying to leverage on this, what do meetings in, well you already said that, what meetings mean in general for the movement but then what advice would you give to anyone else out there like, oh we want to organize something, what should they think about, especially if they're doing something, a huge meeting like the WikiconNL with several tracks and lots of speakers.
What they should think about in broad sense?
Yes, in broad sense.
A lot of things. I think one important thing that I like to think of sometimes is a thing that our keynote speaker said earlier this day. Our keynote speaker is like a Dutch philosopher and Maxim Februari said it's important to just not always follow the rules because if you follow the rules you get the impression that you're doing something right while it may conflict with your moral compass. And I think that was a very essence thing to do because generally if you say there's a young people's track and older people aren't allowed there you're discriminating so that's a rule and that could be a problem. So we didn't explicitly set people to not go there because it's forbidden. It's not forbidden and not at all because that would be discrimination but you can say please give presence to the young people there or put yourself a bit in the back. Don't be too big of a personality there. So I think that aspect of not just breaking the rules but just pushing them a bit as long as you know what you're doing and as long as you see okay how are we building this community? What are we doing to build this community?With what goals? What is in the future for us? If you talk about that and if you look at that you can push the rules a bit. You can push, yeah you can search for new rules or new boundaries.
And finally do you have any favorite parts or maybe a favorite session or something favoritely different from the last thing in this conference?
Well something unraveled itself as well in the program and that is I just realized it like half an hour ago. We have this the young people's track we didn't program anything because it's their space and they can do whatever but sometimes when you go to a festival you have this like surprise sessions or at least I go to a festival where they have like there's a program and then all of a sudden there's this empty hole in the program and a day before or just at the same day people announce there will be a secret session in that area and then everybody's like oh what's the secret session and they will announce it either on Bluesky, Mastodon or on Instagram what the secret session will be and everybody just shows up. You just have to be there or you missed it. That's the secret session and I like that's the thing I want to do next time because it's kind of the young people that said like okay we actually want to host another presentation about a project that we're doing on Wiki can we do this? Yes one o'clock in your track perfect. We're not going to put it on a program because the program's already printed but it's possible do it there and it's kind of works like a secret session and I like that's something that's fun. Not sure if the community is open for secret sessions and going there but it's a fun idea that I just realized that that could be that could work.
All right thanks for taking the time Thamara and have enjoyed the rest of the conference.
Well thank you for the interview I liked it really enjoyed it.
All right we're sitting here in the foyer again I'm here with Vera de Kok who is now this year the official photographer for WikiconNL.
Yes.
What does it mean for you to be able to document an event like this?
Well it's nice that it's a paid gig this time it's only the third time I've been a paid event photographer after having been a Wikipedia photographer for 15 years now. So the pressure is a bit less heavy than the first time of course but still quite exciting to be a professional supposedly.
And what does it mean for the movement to be able to document events like this?
To me it's always been quite nice that right away when I went to my first Wikimedia event I could also look back at the pictures and see how much I smelled in those pictures. I often go back to that 2011 meetup in Den Bosch which was the 10-year anniversary of the Dutch language Wikipedia meetup. With the documentation of the Wikimedia movement also at Wikimania and the hackathon of course it can make the movement more visible give it more human face because it's still quite hard to bring across to the general public that when you edit Wikipedia it's not just you in your attic editing a text and never interacting with anybody else. It's a quite nice combination of the individual being able to direct what their points of interests are and being able to work on them whenever they feel like it but also still in a sort of anarchistical way there being a community that strives for something bigger.
Yeah, I really like that answer. That's great. And also now you're obviously needing to run around and photograph everything but I guess there's also something happening before what goes into preparation for an event like this.
I usually just throw myself into stuff and look what happens. I always struggle to predict what my energy levels are going. I guess guarding my energy levels before the event is my main preparation because I struggle with that from time to time because I'm autistic and social events always take a lot out of me.
And on the other end, this is not your first documentation of a Wikimedia event. What goes into working on afterwards and do you think there's something that's different being a photographer at the Wikimedia event compared to just doing photos for yourself?
Well, when you're taking pictures for yourself you're just snapping a picture and that's just for your personal album and you mainly take it to anchor your memories by. And I do try to be a professional and take lots of pictures and then throw away two-thirds of them before publishing.
What can an organizer of an event like this do to help or enable an event photographer?
I've been going to events to do photography for Wikipedia for quite some time so I don't need all that much support I guess. Parallel tracks are quite difficult to keep track of. An event I did earlier this year had an organizer that coached me a bit more to get from room to room in order to cover all the tracks. I did my best today to do that too but it's hard anyway. I guess I'm a fairly independent person who just goes and does things and then finds out if things end up good or bad.
Thank you very much Vera and enjoy the last of the afterparty.
Yeah they've got bitter butter.
All right so we're outside the keynote of the conference and I'm here with the Wikimedia Foundation lead community relations specialist Julia Brungs. Welcome to the podcast.
Hello thank you.
So first of all thank you. I follow your weekly reportings of the collection of news all the time and it's a huge help for me just researching the podcast. How do you think the movement is doing in general of this internal communication?
That's an interesting question. There's lots of internal communication going on in our movement. When I compile the weekly newsletter I have lots of websites I have pre-saved where I just go weekly and I see oh what does this chapter have published this week and what is this like your podcast is on it as well so I go there is a new podcast. So there is lots going on. I think sometimes we might miss the kind of getting it together in one space and yes I publish a document on Facebook which is clearly for our movement not always the greatest place it's a proprietary platform but from my perspective it's the best I can do. I do this internally to also inform the teams and then it's just sharing further with the community what I gather across. But yeah I guess the Wikimedia Bulletin that the communication teams put together is also very useful on a top level of what the foundation is doing what's going on across the broader spectrum of the movement.
Yeah and the bulletin is very interesting because that's also sort of like a collection of things yours a collection of things. Is there something and we have the blog the Diff is there needs to sort of like have some sort of like aggregator or some kind to get also for people to know that if I publish something people will find it.
Yeah Diff has also the subscribe function so you can get it to your inbox or whatever you use for this so that's great and I don't know there might be an information overflow quite quickly like our movement is extremely like kind of publishing heavy. So I think it's more like everyone should create what they want to get information on. And there's lots of different venues where they can find some of them.
Yeah and if we switch to like because now we're talking about internal communication internally in the movement. How do you think we're doing when communicating outwards towards the outer world. And I mean basically from what we are you are seeing what the community is communicating.
I think Diff is a great example for this I know Diff is very much for the movement but I'm sure it also gets picked up outside the movement and I really enjoy the blog. I think it's great it has does every week new stories that are super interesting and it shows everything from like a group in Indonesia to someone in Uruguay doing things. So the like plethora of stories coming together there is great to see. And perhaps the last question lingering on that is every week you also end your lovely little collection with your favorite article.
Do you have some favorite piece of community communication news from maybe the last year or ever if you like something that oh this was nicely communicated.
I'm just thinking like some chapters do a really good job with writing really regular blog posts and they either put them on differ on their own side. There's just like there's a lot of Latin American chapters who do really interesting work also with indigenous peoples and like really good at communicating that and I find that personally really interesting because it's far away from me. So it's always feels a bit like traveling at the same time which I quite often do in my favorite article of the week. It's like oh I went to this museum while sitting at my desk. So this is always like taking somewhere else on a journey through the reading.
And now of course we are at WikiconNL which is a knowledge sharing within the platform. How do you feel meetings like this like what do they mean for our knowledge sharing.
I think getting together as humans is important right. So it's nice to see people it's nice to talk to them. Obviously the keynotes in the sessions are important and interesting but ultimately it's the human connections especially between volunteers when like we don't really see people when we do our work in our computers. So I think for the human connections these are really important.
In what role could they or do they also play in our way of communicating towards the world. Like in essence WikiconNL and many of our meetings are like internal events. Sometimes they're more open than others. Do they still play a role in the communication and if so how.
I guess I mean there were reporters there was which was mentioned at the beginning. So I presume that these reporters will write about them and then the general public will read a bit about it and go oh actually there's volunteers behind writing Wikipedia. It's also about this educational aspect because a lot of people I think might not reflect on how does the article you're currently reading come together. So giving these articles human faces in the country where the conferences are held is important
All right thank you very much Julia for taking the time.
You're very welcome.
And we're still in the foyer of the WikiconNL and now I'm here with Jan-Bart de Vreede who is the chairman of the Dutch chapter but also have been the chairman of the board of Wikimedia Foundation. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Maybe just a first reflection like what what's the how do you experience the difference of being the chairman of the board of the Dutch chapter now compared to your previous experiences?
The skill is completely different but also you have much more contact and interaction with volunteers who are working on the projects daily. It's much more involved with it with a smaller chapter and I think that's great. That gives me energy.
And we're at such an activity right now at the Wikicon you have the opportunity to meet Wikimedians, the chapter members. What does a meeting like this mean for the Dutch chapter?
I think it's the one time when hopefully a year but we can't always do it every year. It's an opportunity to reconnect with people. People who you often hear from online and you often have online discussions with and really like get to know what updates what they're working on what they're enthusiastic about. And so it's nice when you look out I get the luxury of sitting in front of the group in the morning and you look out you see all these familiar faces but you also see new faces and you're like hey there's new people who are involved who were attracted to come to this conference and are interested in getting more involved. So it's a great balance.
And you already hinted to it in your answer but my follow up question was sort of like what does it mean for the entire Dutch community or maybe even the Wikimedia community what you can get together here today?
I think one of the great examples is we have several international talks coming from different regions and I think that happens in lots of local conferences where we share experiences across borders. But it's also important just to see what are people up to. I mean we need a lot of time for connecting and for getting in touch with each other but also with the initiatives and seeing new things and discussing topics like the threat but also the opportunities of A.I. so dealing with those things on a bigger scale together because just like a Wikipedia article I think more brains together come with more creative solutions.
And do you see this as the initiator of those thoughts where you can get sparks to continue or a place where you actually distill this down to an end result?
I think it's a little bit of both. If you look at some people here spend a long time preparing on certain topics and they come here prepared to discuss them and other people are just like hmm this is the topic interesting let's just go see what I can contribute. And I think it's always one of the hard things for our movement is that we seek some definitive answer which often isn't there and then adding new people to the conversation in a nice way like this conference is a great way to get different perspectives.
And we're almost halfway through here and I guess you have read the program in advance as well. Do you feel there's something that you're especially sort of like oh this is very good to get opportunity to get to talk about this topic now together in person deeply?
It's such a corny answer but A.I. is one of those topics but also like one of the topics I just said then was decolonization and just the whole like the experience we have a presentation from Australia on how they deal with certain topics which is really interesting which I would recommend and I think they're going to put it online because I think it's also been recorded. So it's not the general topics and I think we've moved away a little bit and I don't know if that's a natural trend but from how to Wikipedia to more like these are interesting things people are doing including our partners which is also nice because you don't usually get to see behind the scenes of what they do. So I like those topics as well. On the other hand right now I'm missing out on a final a basic course on how to start with Wikidata but I guess I'll have to take my chances and do it somewhere else.
I think we can find some places for that.
Exactly.
You present a very good case for having this and I imagine since you're coming back and doing them over and over again that you're really feeling a value of doing this but I also expect that it's quite hard to measure the impact. What are your thoughts on that topic, value, impact and doing stuff?
It's hard and at the same time the fact that a lot of our active editors turn up and are appreciative and fill in evaluation forms saying they really appreciate the time together is a really good reason to simply do this because we're in a large part to facilitate them and to get them involved and for me personally it's a great way to see like oh my god all these people are working on such great interesting projects I see new faces and I see people coming up to me I'm working on this and this topic. Do you know anyone else you can connect me to? And it's like oh yeah I know that person is working on something similar so I think that reason alone is good enough but just having a day just meeting up without any talks would be very boring so I think we need to have some talks to fill in the networking space.
Maybe the last question then, someone listening to this maybe in another chapter, maybe in an affiliate, maybe even lose our Wiki project what's your advice for them to organize a meeting, maybe even a big conference like this?
I think it depends. We're not really big but I think there's a lot of smaller organizations and I think trying to find what we did at first is to find partner organizations and join them and have a track or find mind-like organizations which are like OpenStreetMap and whatever of Creative Commons and try to join them to find a space but as soon as you can try and dominate a certain area so you know that a lot of like-minded people will come if you're just one session then it's not likely for people to come and travel which you can tell your volunteers hey we have a meeting on this topic and we spend a half a day or a day then if you have that luxury try and get it together and the difference also is we're a small country so everyone can travel here maximum of two hours which is still a stretch sometimes but I imagine there's so many other countries where that's not an option so maybe going online is a better option we've done as we've all done in COVID times we've done online conferences which require different dynamics but are also a really good way to start maybe.
All right, thank you for coming on the podcast Jan-Bart to enjoy the rest of the conference.
I will thank you very much for the invitation.
And now I'm sitting here at WikiconNL with Sandra Rientjes who is the executive director of the Dutch chapter Wikimedia Netherlands. Let's start with a big but small question. What does the WikiconNL mean for the Dutch chapter?
It's sort of on the one hand sort of an annual celebration of the community. Here sort of the die-hard community members come together and exchange what they've been working on and it's just catching up. On the other hand it's also an opportunity to bring in new people to the movement and to give our partners a chance to present themselves. But basically I think it's very much a social event.
And do you see that socialization sort of really getting root or spreading all around in the Dutch community and not only being chapter members?
Oh definitely, I think the Wikicon has always been very open. So we've always said anyone can come, you don't have to be a member. And I see a lot of people of whom I know that they are not members. And of course people who work for museums, universities So it's definitely bigger than just Wikimedia Netherlands.
And I know being around here for a while that the Dutch chapter cares about organizing meetings and events. You even have had like these weekly Saturdays where you open up the office. What do you think meetings in person means for the Wikimedia community?
Well, I've actually never seen a big on Wiki argument or fight between two or three Wikimedians who I know have met each other in person. So I think it helps. There still will be disagreements but the fact that you once had a coffee with someone or you were in the same workshop session or you had a beer afterwards. That helps, that makes it easier to get things sorted out without it really blowing up.
And with that sort of like, I guess, humanization by meeting, what do you think would be advice for other organizers who are looking to create a meeting? How could they sort of like get that to be an aspect of the meeting and not just be, oh let's make thousand edits during this event?
Creating, I think getting community input. Really asking the community what would you like, what would you like to do. For example here at this event somewhere in the basement there are several young Wikimedians doing stuff. It's a bit unclear what they're doing but we're pretty sure it's legal. So create the room for people to make their own good event. And I think in the Netherlands we are sort of lucky because this is a small country. And we have our office in Utrecht which is right in the center. So it is easier to organize an in-person event than for big countries like Australia. We were talking to Wikimedia Australia earlier, I mean that's so huge you can't even think of it. And Sweden also sizable I would say. So we are lucky in the Netherlands this is easy to organize. People can come here and get back home tonight.
And if someone has, like an organizer might have not enormous amounts of resources Would you advise them to do, oh let's go for something big because many will show up. Or would you advise them let's do something regular because that will give opportunity? Like if they had to pick one which would you pick then?
If you don't have many resources I think I would go for more smaller events. And then you could also spread them around the country which makes it easier for people. By the way I would also like to say we are here at the World Museum. And they are very active partners, one of our oldest partners. And they like it that we are here so they don't charge us completely for the venue and so that helps.
And now you have been working with a lot of different partners with the chapters. If one wants to find a partner to get this, do you just knock on the door? Or do you have some special tips for getting the foot inside the door?
A lot of the partners especially from the GLAM sector they like Wikimedia and Wikipedia. They like to be associated with it. So if you just put the question to them say we would like to have an event. Could we have it at your place and perhaps could you help us a bit because we don't have that much money. I think most of them will try to help you in some way. And I don't think they would find it a really very strange question.
And perhaps switching gears a little bit like you are the longest serving executive director in the Wikimedia movement of any affiliate and has been for quite some time, so I think it would take some time if anyone ever catches up to you.
Claudia is I think six months behind me so if she lasts a bit, Wikipedia Austria will take over.
But now you are retiring but still you have been going strong for 13 years. What has been giving you the energy to get going?
Oh it's so damn interesting. I mean sometimes it's also infuriating. Well you have been a chapter in yourself so you know it can be tough. And sometimes you just want to start hitting people. But it's always interesting. And every day I came into the office I was never quite sure what was going to happen. Definitely something was going to happen which I had not planned for. So I think that made it worthwhile to keep continuing.
And you obviously haven't had any time to reflect because you are still working hard on this into the last days. But is there always something that you feel like oh I'm so proud of this happened during my time at the Dutch chapter?
I think one thing is that we've managed after many years of trying to get project funded in the Dutch Caribbean on Aruba. That's now going strong. And the other thing, that's more personally because it was not directly connected to Wikimedia nederland. I was part of the drafting committee of the Universal Code of Conduct. And the Universal Code of Conduct, it exists, it functions. I see the Dutch ARBCOM quoting from text we helped draft. And I think that is something I'm also proud of.
That's a nice one. And maybe a final question. I'm sure you're getting to onboard the incoming executive director. But thinking wider for the movement, what advice would you be giving to aspiring leaders, maybe in affiliates, maybe in wikiprojects. What does it take to be a leader in our movement?
I think I'm going to quote Barack Obama. Because somebody once asked him what is your advice to young community leaders. And he said learn how to get stuff done. Just practical things. You want in a meeting, ok, learn how you can get the money and what the steps are. I mean talking and understanding and writing articles, all great. But find out how you get stuff done.
That's a great answer. Thank you Sandra for joining the podcast and also thank you for all the time we had had together.
You were a great colleague and still a great friend in the movement.
Thanks.
And that was all our interviews from WikiconNL 2025 in Leiden. If you enjoyed this, please share it with your friends, with your Wikimedian friends so they also can learn about events and how to organize them. Maybe they will get a few tips. You can find the podcast on Wikimedia Commons in the category Wikipediapodden. You can find it on wikipediapodden.se and everywhere where you find podcasts in general. If you want to subscribe to only the English podcast. Go to our webpage and look for English. And we have a special RSS feed for you to put in your podcast app. This has been me, Jan Ainali signing out.